Feedback

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Keegan
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:52 pm

Feedback

Post by Keegan »

Okay.

Before opening GLOBAL, long before in fact, feedback was a sore subject for me. As someone who has given feedback everywhere I’ve been, it annoys me when people don’t bother. I stop short of saying ‘reciprocate’ because I don’t mind if I get it or not, I will from someone somewhere, but it bugs the life out of me that it’s not extended to fellow handlers, full stop.

However, before I go into some of my thoughts on how I wanted feedback to work prior to this place’s existence, I will make some of this more relevant if some of you stop reading.

You’re always going to get feedback from me, and we have a good core of staff/handlers giving their insight every show, such as Brian, Pedro, Scott and Chris, which I’m delighted about (really) so if you’re a handler not giving feedback, think about this: You’re receiving feedback from a handful of people every fortnight and giving nothing back in return. Whether feedback is mandatory or not, me in that position? I feel like I need to give something back, whether it be to the people reviewing me or just the fed in general. Honestly. If anyone who has handled with me from previous feds wants to pull me up on that, feel free, but I’d like to think the majority/all of you know I’m telling the truth.

Now, you don’t need to worry about me, personally. Feedback for me? If you can, wonderful and thanks in advance. But, I’d rather see you help your fellow handlers and by extension, I read everyone’s feedback, so you’re still helping me by talking about which characters you’re into or there were niggles with what you’ve read. Others, as I speak about elsewhere, use the shorthand form and great examples of this are Hector and Kyle, who've reviewed all/almost all the shows and that is greatly appreciated in its own right.

I understand not having credits in every show, something I’ve thought about and will no doubt cross my mind in the future, means on first sight, you may or may not have a clue who’s written what, which comes with its pros and cons. However, should you read one show, you get an idea of who/what you like (like in real-life wrestling when you think about it) and that means for future shows, while you may still be missing out on something good somewhere, you know who/what you like and at least you’re reading/reviewing those characters.

From multiple people over the years, I’ve encountered an ‘all or nothing’ attitude. If I give feedback, I’d rather do it for everyone or no one at all, and how do you think that goes? Forget show length, it’s easier in EVERY single fed to pick the option of ‘nothing.’ How about, instead of all or nothing, we choose someone/something. Personally, and you can disagree with me all you want, I’d rather see 2-3 people get reviewed than 0. That’s me. The shorthand form is available every time we’ve posted a show, such as Best Match, Best Angle and Line, so exercise that form just to give something.

We’re a week shy of it being 4 months since we had our first show, and some of you have left zero feedback. I am aware quite a few have had much more important things going on than GLOBAL, me included believe it or not, and I was ‘too busy’ in the middle of the arc.

With feedback, I’ve seen in other feds, we’re actually doing pretty well. This is relative. Scott is used to it being mandatory, and while I’m not, my frustration with the lack of it over the years is why this thread even exists. Comparatively speaking, we’re doing well, but we could still be doing better.

So, no, you’re not expected to read every word or every show and if you miss a show because life gets on top of you, then that’s fine, too. However, not leaving any feedback tells us you’re not reading the show, or you’ve got no intention of reading it. And, it’s not fair on the people who do read the shows and bother to give you feedback if you’re one of the people I’m referring to. Should you want any extra advice on this, or have any questions, either reply here or better yet, get hold of me on Discord.

Thanks for reading.
Last edited by Keegan on Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Keegan
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:52 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by Keegan »

Let’s go on.

So, an option that was discussed a long time ago was assigning a storyline to a handler. I’d give feedback on everyone, but that way, it would be more manageable for someone to read the show if they only had to follow one angle. Of course, some people write more than others, but even still.
I stopped short of implementing that, perhaps a mistake, as I didn’t want to make feedback like work and here, I am, probably making it sound like work!

As for the ‘I’m not good at giving feedback’ argument. Okay, let’s say you’re not. Again, going back to the shorthand form, you are giving some sort of reaction to the show if you do this.

Best Match: The main event.
Best Segment: Doritos Man burning to a crisp.
Best Angle: EZ Rah and Jerry David.
Best Line: That’s What She Said for the 500th time. Way to go.

Hard?

Still better than nothing?

Food for thought – pun intended.
Jerry David
Site Admin
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:23 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by Jerry David »

You know my opinion on this but I'll put it here so everyone does.

If you read even 1/4 of the show, I expect feedback on it for a few reasons - firstly, plenty of people are giving feedback to you, so don't be a scumbag and reciprocate. Secondly, it shows you are reading the show.

If you decide to say "I'm not good at feedback" that's a) bullshit, because feedback is a subjective opinion piece, not a scientific fact and b) irrelevant when a shorthand form is provided in every feedback thread.

There is no excuse not to leave SOME feedback on every show, and anyone who says anything to the contrary I'll call a liar.
Keegan
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:52 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by Keegan »

Thanks for sharing, and yes, I reckon we do.

My third and final part: The issue of not even reading feedback. People have read what you've had to write, given thoughts, and offered pointers on where to get better. Least you could do is have a look at the feedback, and for many of you reading this, you'll be baffled by what I'm saying. There are some people who don't read feedback or even their own character on the show, and while I can't prove that, I'd put money on it. I'm daft, ladies and gentleman, but not THAT daft.

The beauty of having no credits is readers reacting to segments, irrespective of who wrote them. I've had my fair share of criticism, because I'm a terrible writer and deserve it. I've also had my fair share of praise. As fedhead, I'm fair game, and not above someone telling me you did this wrong or could have done this better.

If I can drag Pedro in here. Scott talked about the collective use of speech marks being wrong. Pedro and I, years and millions of words of experience between us, have tried to take that on board. We read Scott's feedback, designed to help us and the fed get better, and tried to implement it. Pedro contributes an awful lot to the show from a reading and writing perspective, and still wants to get better.

I'm not here to get better, you may say. It's just a bit of fun. Okay, I can accept that. You don't need to know the difference between the Past Perfect Simple and Past Perfect Continuous or the Second and Third Conditional overtly, and we've all made typos/accidentally used the wrong tense, no big deal. I still focus more on the match itself than any one mistake, and if you're not here to get better as a writer, that's fine.

But, you can still listen to feedback. And take the time to read what others have read AND shared with you on how you're doing. You're not going to agree with every piece of feedback, some may be contradictory and confusing. But, at least, reading what someone has said about you, whether it be positive or negative, is designed to help you and the collective 'we' (AHEM) get better,

Enough from me. Feel free to chime in.
pdbnb
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:05 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by pdbnb »

I only wanted to point out (and BOTH fedheads know this, first hand, from me) that making feedback mandatory and threatening those who don't feedback with exclusion from the fed or the Discord chat is NOT the way forward. That way, it feels like homework - and remember what you did with assignments from teachers who gave a lot of homework? That's right, you half-assed them, just so you wouldn't get in trouble. Is that really what we want? Or would we rather have enthusiastic and eager volunteers writing dozens if not hundreds of words for us, going over every segment in at least some detail? I know what I'd prefer.

In my two feds to date, feedback threads were very similar to those here at GLOBAL, in that I expected 3-4 people to show up regularly and provide detailed reviews, and a couple more to go short-form, while the rest simply moved on. As I told Keegan, I would be a lot more concerned if I didn't get segments or roleplays from people, far more than feedback. As a fedhead, I just took a sort of 'it is what it is' approach to feedback, honestly.

That said, yes, I have adapted my writing to fit 'what people want' (I'm an efedder, it's in my genes) especially where I felt like they were right, and it would help improve my writing. This has so far ranged from fixing punctuation (including things I'm still not sure are wrong, like the use of a comma in ""dialogue", said Pedro" situations) to tweaking characters so they are more fleshed out or their dialogue is more believable (Angel stopped calling Saul "papi" and the Best of British have started using slightly more formal language, to cite the main two examples). So, yes, at least READING feedback might be worthwhile, even if you are already a good writer (which pretty much everyone here already is).

Just my two cents, for better or worse.
MasterSisters
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:20 am

Re: Feedback

Post by MasterSisters »

Probably a lot of what I'm saying is going to sound like excuses, but since I'm pretty sure this whole thread is due to the discussion I had with Scott, and because I am one of the bigger offenders in lack of feedback (I am fully aware of it), here's my reply.

First of all, I want to say I far more appreciate this approach of explaining WHY the feedback is important to you and the fed, over simply tagging and threatening the users. Like Pedro said, it feels like homework, but that's not the worst part. It feels agressive, confrontational and, as other people who are no longer here said before, it feels like we're being treated like a child. There's probably better ways to go about it. This thread is a good example of it.
And if someone asks "Well, if you think so, why haven't you said before?", I don't need to, other people have, and I've seen what happens.

As for why I haven't posted feedback, well, here's were the "excuses" section of this post starts, so I'm going to keep it honest, straight, and start by admitting that this has everything to do with me and no one else.
I try to read the full show, I do, but I cannot. I end up prioritizing anything that is related to my current storyline/angle/whatever, skim the rest of the show briefly, and then I'll try to read what I can. Ocasionally going back to previous shows to read segments or matches I haven't related to ones I'm currently reading. That means that I still read things from Dom #1 today, and that means I still haven't fully read Dom #1 as well. It's probably an unorthodox flip-floppy method, but it's what works best for me.
And while when I joined I thought "I'll post some feedback when I read the full show", since I never actually read a FULL show, I just kinda gave up on the idea of giving feedback on the shows. Afterall, I wouldn't be able to give those giant, very cool, feedback posts that people like Keegan, Scott or Pedro give, but it also felt wrong for me to just go "Best Match: Sean Darring vs Aleczander" or something, when I haven't read *all* matches.
This thread made me realize that my approach to that is kinda dumb, afterall I don't really need to do one or the other, I can leave feedback on a couple of stuff I feel like it's worth and I'll try to do that.

As for the second "excuse", and the one I say more than I like to say it, believe me, because I know how it sounds. I don't have time. And this is stupid, I've tried e-fedding with my workload, and my other hobbies before and I've realized that it's exausthing to manage it all, and I ended up giving up on it.
But I tricked myself into thinking that last time it also had to do with my motivation, and that this time it would be different, and with Pedro on my side things would work better.
And they slightly did, mind you, which is why I don't want to just say "Hey, sorry, I'm quitting". I don't want to quit, I've had fun working with Pedro and Keegan, and I respect a lot the responsibility you guys put on me in giving me the Tag Titles, and I regret not being better in that role.
One of the things I decided to do was to not focus on the optional stuff. Now, I don't consider reading the show "optional", or at least not skimming it to have a grasp of the events, roster and state of the company. I fully understand that without people reading the show, there's no point to an e-fed. It's all about the joint effort.

One thing I did consider optional, and I've actually done it, is doing matches. I never wrote a single match in all my 15 years of e-fedding, and I wasn't predicting at all that that would be needed when I joined. Thankfully for me, Pedro loves doing those. I understand that, by writting them, I'm helping release the workload of others, which is why I reluctantly accepted and tried to learn how to write them, maybe it wasn't a good idea that I experimented with this with a main event and a Tag Team Championship, but once I say I'm writting them, I AM writting them.
I admire you guys far more since then, btw, but writting matches legitimately makes me cry... This has nothing to do with feedback, but since I'm writting excuses, we might as well.
The other optional thing was feedback, if I already felt that my incomplete feedback was worthless, and if I struggle with time management, not prioritizing it feels like a no-brainer. And yes, I always thought feedback was something optional, that, again, is on me, not you.

Finally, I understand that I possibly could learn how to time manage better, and that it's not really that I'm necessarily busier than all of you, but I am literally going to therapy because of this... but it hasn't produced many results as of yet. The three big time consuming things in my life is my job, my family, and my youtube channel and I'm not giving up any of them, I hope you can understand that.

It saddness me because I think this whole feedback situation as soured my relationship with Scott. Maybe "sour" isn't the right word, the relationship already started on the wrong foot, but hopefully you get what I mean.
I, like others, don't really appreciate the tone used on discord, but more so, I really do feel like Scott thinks I don't care about the fed, and don't want to put effort in it, and I understand that can create ressentiment, specially on a user you're literally making a champion. However, that ressentiment is not motivational, rather, it's stressfull for both, and I'm easier to close and freeze under pressure and stress as I focus all my energies to not be angry, than I am to actually get up and do something. That's on me as well, it's how I am.

Anyways, for all it's worth, I'll try to do better.
Jerry David
Site Admin
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:23 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by Jerry David »

MasterSisters wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:01 pm Probably a lot of what I'm saying is going to sound like excuses, but since I'm pretty sure this whole thread is due to the discussion I had with Scott, and because I am one of the bigger offenders in lack of feedback (I am fully aware of it), here's my reply.

First of all, I want to say I far more appreciate this approach of explaining WHY the feedback is important to you and the fed, over simply tagging and threatening the users. Like Pedro said, it feels like homework, but that's not the worst part. It feels agressive, confrontational and, as other people who are no longer here said before, it feels like we're being treated like a child. There's probably better ways to go about it. This thread is a good example of it.
And if someone asks "Well, if you think so, why haven't you said before?", I don't need to, other people have, and I've seen what happens.

As for why I haven't posted feedback, well, here's were the "excuses" section of this post starts, so I'm going to keep it honest, straight, and start by admitting that this has everything to do with me and no one else.
I try to read the full show, I do, but I cannot. I end up prioritizing anything that is related to my current storyline/angle/whatever, skim the rest of the show briefly, and then I'll try to read what I can. Ocasionally going back to previous shows to read segments or matches I haven't related to ones I'm currently reading. That means that I still read things from Dom #1 today, and that means I still haven't fully read Dom #1 as well. It's probably an unorthodox flip-floppy method, but it's what works best for me.
And while when I joined I thought "I'll post some feedback when I read the full show", since I never actually read a FULL show, I just kinda gave up on the idea of giving feedback on the shows. Afterall, I wouldn't be able to give those giant, very cool, feedback posts that people like Keegan, Scott or Pedro give, but it also felt wrong for me to just go "Best Match: Sean Darring vs Aleczander" or something, when I haven't read *all* matches.
This thread made me realize that my approach to that is kinda dumb, afterall I don't really need to do one or the other, I can leave feedback on a couple of stuff I feel like it's worth and I'll try to do that.

As for the second "excuse", and the one I say more than I like to say it, believe me, because I know how it sounds. I don't have time. And this is stupid, I've tried e-fedding with my workload, and my other hobbies before and I've realized that it's exausthing to manage it all, and I ended up giving up on it.
But I tricked myself into thinking that last time it also had to do with my motivation, and that this time it would be different, and with Pedro on my side things would work better.
And they slightly did, mind you, which is why I don't want to just say "Hey, sorry, I'm quitting". I don't want to quit, I've had fun working with Pedro and Keegan, and I respect a lot the responsibility you guys put on me in giving me the Tag Titles, and I regret not being better in that role.
One of the things I decided to do was to not focus on the optional stuff. Now, I don't consider reading the show "optional", or at least not skimming it to have a grasp of the events, roster and state of the company. I fully understand that without people reading the show, there's no point to an e-fed. It's all about the joint effort.

One thing I did consider optional, and I've actually done it, is doing matches. I never wrote a single match in all my 15 years of e-fedding, and I wasn't predicting at all that that would be needed when I joined. Thankfully for me, Pedro loves doing those. I understand that, by writting them, I'm helping release the workload of others, which is why I reluctantly accepted and tried to learn how to write them, maybe it wasn't a good idea that I experimented with this with a main event and a Tag Team Championship, but once I say I'm writting them, I AM writting them.
I admire you guys far more since then, btw, but writting matches legitimately makes me cry... This has nothing to do with feedback, but since I'm writting excuses, we might as well.
The other optional thing was feedback, if I already felt that my incomplete feedback was worthless, and if I struggle with time management, not prioritizing it feels like a no-brainer. And yes, I always thought feedback was something optional, that, again, is on me, not you.

Finally, I understand that I possibly could learn how to time manage better, and that it's not really that I'm necessarily busier than all of you, but I am literally going to therapy because of this... but it hasn't produced many results as of yet. The three big time consuming things in my life is my job, my family, and my youtube channel and I'm not giving up any of them, I hope you can understand that.

It saddness me because I think this whole feedback situation as soured my relationship with Scott. Maybe "sour" isn't the right word, the relationship already started on the wrong foot, but hopefully you get what I mean.
I, like others, don't really appreciate the tone used on discord, but more so, I really do feel like Scott thinks I don't care about the fed, and don't want to put effort in it, and I understand that can create ressentiment, specially on a user you're literally making a champion. However, that ressentiment is not motivational, rather, it's stressfull for both, and I'm easier to close and freeze under pressure and stress as I focus all my energies to not be angry, than I am to actually get up and do something. That's on me as well, it's how I am.

Anyways, for all it's worth, I'll try to do better.
I’m going to reply to all of this. Especially it’s ending, privately later this evening.
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Legend
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:44 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by Legend »

I will echo a lot that has been said here. I think any form of activity is good for a handler. A fedhead puts so much energy, time, and effort into running a league it's rewarding to see activity in any form as a good thing. One of those is feedback.

I won't type the same stuff that has been said here, but I do think we should be careful in shaming those who miss a show or two in giving feedback, especially if they are active on all other fronts.

It would be nice for us all to give some sort of feedback and creative input. After all, the "fans" for us are our fellow handlers.
Handle: "The Legend" Sean Darring & Prime Time Athletes
Keegan
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:52 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by Keegan »

Well said, Brian.

Amen.
THEHopper
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:46 pm

Re: Feedback

Post by THEHopper »

Here is what I can tell you, as a former fed head.

When you haven't read the shows and try to "fake yoru way through it" it shows and comes across as self serving to claim you did feedback

When you skim the shows and still want to comment on a lot....it shows as there are obvious things that ought to be moments if you read the show that you missed because you skimmed.

When you only read the stuff centered around your character, it shows.

When you only read the stuff submitted by your friends, it shows.

And when you read the show and give solid feedback and constructive criticism, it shows.

But I can probably guess pretty close what kind of fed reader you are or how much you actually read by looking at the feedback.


Now far as feedback itself....

I would never want it to be mandatory in a sense that you are booted if you don't do it.

I have been in feds that gave rankings points (it was a competitive fed) for those who did feedback and that got a ton of people reading and reviewing to whatever degree they did. But in an angle fed, that is not a driving force either.

I can say that, as a fed head, if I saw people not giving feedback or at least trying to look like the gave a flip about more than just their own individual stuff....I doubt I would consider them for any real main event spots. Keegan may have a different feel for it, but that was always mine.

Bear in mind my last ever fed as a fed head essentially closed because NOBODY outside of 3 of us ever gave feedback to anything and it got annoying cranking out thousands of words every 2 weeks for next to nobody to read. That was the biggest reason SCW shut down.

Conversely the league I ran a few years before SCW was UPW and while it had crazy drama and BS happening all the time it seems.....there were 2 guys who did podcast form feedback for everything the league put out.....and they read everything and reacted to everything. It was glorious and when I shut it down, I was not burned out because I knew people were reading and giving reactions and genuinely interested in the fed's happenings and direction.

So yes feedback is a motivator for fed heads more than any of us truly want to admit.....and doing it does help keep the fed head going.
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